My Emails to Dr. Hany Mina - 4

Email: 4
From: Dr. Hany
To: me

Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 4:04 AM


Dear Peter

I am very happy to meet you, even if only on the web.  You gave me a lovely beautiful "sudden sharp shock," as Fr Zakaria says.  Having read your words, I, now, long to meet you face to face.  Where are you on this globe? Can we meet in the flesh?  Where have you been all these years? Who are you? How old are you? What do you do in life? What is your background and spectrum of reading?  Very intriguing thinker indeed.  Your challenges remind me of George Bebawi, the best theologian I have met in my 55 years of life, who is now a great friend, 70 years old, living and teaching theology in Indiana, after Nottingham and Cambridge; you must know of him, if not know him well, with the level of your depth.

Now Sir, I thought I was talking to a 20-25 year-old half-read Copt.  I was wrong, now I know better.  I attempted to give you the best balanced summary of what I know rather than what I deeply hope for and believe in, but would rather not expose others to, unless they can savour it well, without feeling a hot "overdose" down their throat.

The principles I mentioned are the best we can express on the pulpit, on Biblical and Patristic basis, although, still, none is acceptable to our Pope and most of our unread politically-correct clergy: 

• 1) Man makes the choice to divorce God, never the other way round. 
• 2) God would not hold man against man's will.  So, "As long as free will exists, Hell exists."
• 3) Hell is a real condition or experience, clearly mentioned in Christ's teaching, but not well defined as "never ending" albeit "eternal" (=of a different system that has no relation to our Time).  So "It is legitimate to hope that all might be saved [and that is why we pray for all who departed], but heretical to say that all MUST be saved..." 
• 4) We all hate the mere thought of Hell, but cannot extinguish it by denial or wave it goodbye by a mere wishful thinking or even a very deep sense of conviction, that God will definitely wash it away, out of love, because He did not say so to us frankly and unambiguously. 
• 5) Hell is not a God-made place; it is a creature-made condition or state of existence (James 1:13-17).  God hates it and wants it abolished.  Hell is not the consequence of Divine justice, but the result of the Creature's injustice to himself.

My true hope and deep personal conviction is the same as yours.  We, however, do not have enough Biblical foundation to stand on and declare "certainty" in a dogmatic way, on this matter.  I wish we had.  The verses I mentioned are not enough to support a dogmatic teaching.  I also know that it is not a chit-chat matter, far from it, but we cannot teach your hope and mine as a theological "discovery" that all have missed before us.  This stance is exactly what they call "heresy," (=preferring beliefs and excluding others) even if the beliefs seem so attractive we should not take them to the exclusion of others.   It is the intelligent and spiritually deep thinker who is at risk of heresy.  It was said of The Bishop of Salamis who excommunicated Origen 2 centuries after Origen departed to Heaven: "This bishop was so shallow and dull that he could not ever commit heresy" !!!!!!  Certainly Origen, Gregory of Nyssa and Isaac the Syrian, were neither shallow nor dull, so all three believed in a Universal Salvation and that is why they were, to say the least, "criticised" and in case of Origen, excommunicated.        I sincerely believe  (out of love and experience of God as my personal friend rather than a Biblical clarity) that God will and must find a solution for this disease of Eternal Death (Hell) but I wish He had spelt it out frankly rather than "whispering" it in a few ears through the centuries!!!  He is a very humorous but mysterious person and likes this "hide and seek" game. Sometimes I feel He is a lover who plays "too cool", " te2eel awy", "ta2laan 3alena", as we say in Arabic!!!  But these feelings of love and its mysteries are difficult (probably dangerous) to declare to those who do not appreciate love, as a very serious matter, and may misunderstand Love.  Probably the Doctrine of Reserve, after all, is not wrong as a temporary economy, until believers deeply discover God's love and are safe to enter into His "inner room," and be entrusted with such Divine Romance.  He leads our hearts to such convictions, as He is not restricted by the "letter" of even the Biblical verses, which are essentially "a finger pointing to the light and not the light itself."  We, however, in teaching, are restricted.

I do respect your feelings very deeply. I am very happy to meet another person who shares the same conviction.  The verses of 1Pt and 1Cor are so important but could be interpreted by the "authoritarian conservative" as: God will be "all in all, only to those who accepted His will and repented"; who can dare argue? and they will give you many verses about: no repentance = no salvation, regardless of 1Pt words.  They even say: no obedience to Church ( i.e. the clergy!!!) = no Salvation, for only the clergy can absolve you.. ...etc, of such extremism and "Islamic Biblical interpretation," which they have mastered well along the years, and have thousands willing to support their point of view: blind leading the blind.  Also the preaching to the sinners of Noah's time has been interpreted that: perhaps preaching to the infants and children who were innocent but certainly not to those who willingly opposed the clergy of the day (Noah!). 

If we can just convince a few persons of the few principles I mentioned in bullet points in this mail we would have covered a huge ground.  Our Clergy succeded in immunising the congregation against any teaching which is not approved and rubberstamped by the clergy.  We need to reform our Church from inside, as far as possible, without being dishonest to God and ourselves and without shocking simple people; a very tight rope to walk.

If you understand what Anba Shenouda has said and written in criticism of my writings, you will appreciate my words even better.  HH believes that:"God is Just and Holy, therefore, He must punish sinners by eternal death, or punish Christ in our stead, otherwise He would not be true to Himself and all Christianity falls.  Hell is God's eternal tool of punishment.  God is the MAKER of Hell and death to punish sinners, as they surely and justly deserve, so that He may remain Holy.  Any other opinion is sheer heresy."  Of course this false medieval theology is only promoted because it pleases the hearts of those who do not know or wish to consider mercy and forgiveness to their enemies or even those who merely differ with them in opinion: religious terrorism par excellence.  I was told categorically by Anba Bishoy, on behalf of HH, that: "If you criticise any of my teaching, you are attacking me personally and I must take action against you to protect the dignity and honour of Priesthood (meaning himself and his own image).    We are here on Earth as the defenders of Divine Justice by Church punishments."           

I have been excommunicated simply because I wrote that man is the executioner of himself and not God.  Anba Shenouda for that gave me the title "the warrior against Divine Justice."  God forgive him.  I know that God has done so, because I have asked Him to, because I know that He would not deny me this request.

So if we can just teach and can pass the message of these bullet points in 20 years we would win many hearts to the Love of God.

Come to us let us meet.  I love you and I long to see you already Sir Peter. You are welcome anytime. Hany

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter

To: Hany Mikhail

Cc:

Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 5:38 PM

Subject: Re: Fr Antonious Amin's debates CONTINUED

Dear Hany (if I may),

Swift reply, thank you for that.

To continue the debate, then...        [all green writing by Hany, in reply]

I can maybe accept the notion that God didn't give us a detailed answer to my question about Salvation after Death, however I disagree that The Parable of The Ten Virgins must mean eternal damnation, because I have -finally- decided to not use parables to form doctrines, since parables are by nature subjective to the listener's perception. A good example of an alternative explanation to the parables of eternal hell is this one on The Parable of Lazarus & The Rich Man.  [Agreed]

What you have mentioned, sir... is pretty much what I had read earlier in other places that discuss the subject based on christian text.

I would like to add the following in introduction, though:

1- This is an important issue, not theological chit-chat, because in the spiritual sense, I need to believe in a God who's better & more loving than myself, which is the main attraction & the most solid argument in almost everything I've began to believe in lately. [agree entirely regarding conviction, but others may not tolerate some consequences of this thought]

2- Through God's revelations to people, people grow in Him. I'd like to believe that God arranged for me to read & hear all these things as part of my teaching, even if these beliefs are to be refined later & some of them left behind, I still believe it is part of my training. [I love this conviction and Divine Romance]

Now to properly define the problem, the clearest definition I have seen is this , [I enjoyed reading this excellent link]   however it neglects christian text since it is a independant of christian beliefs & should apply to all beliefs that hold the view of eternal damnation & an all-powerful, all-knowing & all-loving God. [much of it is Christian and Patristic]

In the christian text we find a couple of verses (I avoid those in parables now [correct, and parables were meant to be a metaphor to press one single similarity with the truth, but not to apply every word in it to a spiritual meaning as some do, changing metaphors into myths] because I'd like to point to the clearer unambiguous verses first) that go further with the issue:

1- 1Pt 3:18-21 establishes the possibility of salvation after death.
2-  1Cor 15: 20-28 establishes the necessity of salvation after death.

(unless somebody can come with a convincing different interpretation of them both)

or as you put it:

1- 1Pt 3:18-21: there has been an invitation (preaching) by Christ to those who were sinners in the days of Noah and not only those 8 persons who were in the ark, AFTER Christ was crucified and went to visit them in the Prison, hence after their physical death. Read it carefully.

2- 1Cor 15: 20-28: This suggests that no part of the creation will remain "outside God" (=Eternally Dead).

Now you said afterwards that these are mere speculations, so I must ask how can they be? If  there is no alternative interpretation of the verses, or is there? [yes, the authoritarian-conservative can give more than one alternative, even not logical, but if from a clergy you cannot wash the illogic that is glued by clerical customary infalibility] you said:

1- As long as free will exists, Hell exists.

true of course, but the idea of universal salvation does not negate free will   [only if you add the proviso that God will still give us all a chance to re-learn and make a new start and new free choice after departure from this life, which the Bible does not spell outright]  , it just says that God's Love for us & Patience will be greater than Man's hatred of himself & stubborness, it adds that since God is all-powerful & is outside Time & the material world & he has no deadlines, He will patiently & ultimately get us all back to Himself (The Parable of The Lost Sheep comes to mind when we imagine God's perseverance & determination to save us), H e will not force us,  because you can't "force" somebody to believe or see some Truth. but will patiently draw us to Himself & use everything in his power - being boundless is important here- to make us see that Truth, accept that Life & walk down that Way with Him, in Him. [I totally share your belief and conviction but we do not have enough documented Biblical support for our good aspirations to teach such convictions on the pulpit]

2- So we must make the best of the one and best (even if not the only) chance of repentance and Salvation that we now have.

Well that's the thing, this sounds like people who believe in an ultimate salvation for all mankind may become decadent & wasteful of God's Grace. This may be true sometimes but it reminds me with the Doctrine of Reserve.

this was a supposed practice that hid certain biblical ideas from a new believer in order to not shake their faith, but the problem is that the other idea on which that doctrine is based is that fear of eternal death (hell) can save some people, which I will not accept. plus it is contradictory to the belief that Truth will set us Free.  [ It is not a matter of truth and lies. It is a matter of bite only what you can chew and eat what your stomach can digest, and gradually move from drinking the milk of children to solid food of adults, as St Paul says]

I understand that people cannot understand the entire Truth in God at once, this I believe is the reason Jesus spoke in Parables. & it relates to how God gives Faith to people in the form of gradual Revelations, so I can understand why people would hesitate to talk about any of that universal salvation stuff, but I refuse to believe that some people are saved through fear & others through Love! a woman cannot marry a man she is afraid of rather than in love with, it is not a healthy marriage, the same applies to the Kingdom of God. [I agree according to personal experience but some people need gradual training after centuries of Islamic and Kor'anic Biblical interpretation by our clergy, otherwise they will vomit and get confused.  I have met a few of those and some were treatable but in a few years not a few hours of talk]

In addition, this point -the necessity of repentance while we still have the chance- comes into new light with the view that God is Life, meaning that if being with God is being alive, then sinning now & repenting later becomes a meaningless (& indeed painful) practice, if you refuse God you refuse Life... that is hardly something any of us would enjoy whether here on earth or in the age after. you agree that sin carries its punishment inside it, it carries misery & sickness & death.

I believe one of the biggest triumphs of the devil is that he convinced most christians that sin is a beautiful thing that God is denying us... [ and the blinding teaching by some of our clergy on the Church by terrorism!!!] it is true that we desire sin sometimes, but that is quite literally a sickness, due to our sick post-fall nature that God is fixing. The view that you refrain from sin ( here it is equivalent to pleasure) & lead a miserable worldly life in order to get pleasure in the afterlife is completely incorrect & doesn't sound christian at all.

this also answers all the questions of "what if I sin all my life and repent at the last minute?" & "How can that be fair to people who were saints all their lives" & all the questions that run along those lines in our heads (The Parable of The 11th Hour Workers comes to mind) God wants to give you Life, when you take it is up to you, if you postpone it, you'll be miserable (spiritual death in seperation from God). so it's not a matter of choice & reward, it's a matter of when you choose to accept the medicine, until then you'll hurt & keep wondering why & looking elsewhere for a happiness that lasts without finding any. so making the best of our time now doesn't fit in this picture, at least not in the direct sense of the phrase. [I meant making the best of our life now, i.e. repenting and growing in God's knowlege, during the one chance I know best and sure of, that is the present moment] 

Moreover, this also sheds a new light on the process by which God is saving us, he is not only trying to make us choose Him (where our Free Will poses a problem), he is doing so by Teaching us & Healing our sickness (which has enslaved us, so he is Freeing us from the bonds of sin), after that choosing him over sin can't be a very difficult choice. I mean to say that here we look at God as a Teacher & a Doctor, rather than a Salesman! This also addresses the issue of Free Will & may give more meaning to it while preventing it from being an obstacle to the greater hope that all will be saved.