My Emails to Dr. Hany Mina - 5

Email: 5
From: me
To: Dr. Hany

Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2007 5:13 PM

Dear Hany,

I am very happy with your reply.

I hope you don't get dissapointed at me later, for I am not yet as well educated as you think me to be.

Now I completely agree with what you said about what we can teach publicly on the pulpit & what we can't, at least now. But this may be temporary, after all, one day the official stance of the school of Alexandria was Universal Salvation. (note in editing, the link above no longer claims that. Here's Wikipedia for you)

I also agree that as a temporary economy, the Doctrine of Reserve can be adopted, but in a form of hiding rather than denying certain beliefs. I mean that regardless of the basis of my beliefs, I cannot preach anything opposite to them, for then I would be shedding my Faith & adopting another's & also betraying my integrity, but I can refrain from going into details into things that may harm a listener
 A good example is how Jesus taught using Parables, they teach sometimes in church that he did this to illustrate to simple people, but actually  when his disciples asked him he said he did so for the opposite reason, that is that not all people would understand immediately all what he means, lest they don't understand & be shocked & lose what little Faith they already have.

So I completely understand that there are things we can teach openly & things we can't, regardless of political correctness.

& yes I understand this has nothing to do with truth & lies... but ultimately, it is still God's Truth that will truly ever set a man free, regardless of how it was revealed to him, whether in something he heard or read or thought of in a moment of inspiration. I mean to say that the Doctrine of Reserve (regardless of its form) cannot set people free.

Also, about how we do not have enough documented Biblical support. I agree we don't have enough, & I agree that those with predisposed minds to refuse the ideas in the verses will find a way out, although I have to add that it'll be rather contrived.

Having said that, there are a couple of points I'd like to dwell on here,

1- As was mentioned in the essay I linked to in the last email, "We intuitively hope universalism is true", because it is out of our personal experience of a God who loves us all. "There is something intuitive about our desire to expand redemption beyond orthodox (meaning classic) boundaries. This is significant." & although anybody can argue that nobody can establish a doctrine based on intuition, the essay drew my attention to a doctrine that is based on just that:

"there is one example of a doctrine that Christians have embraced on the basis of intuition, not the Bible. It's the belief that all who die in infancy are saved. The near unanimous voice of the Church has shouted down centuries of belief in infant damnation. And this without a line of Scripture. The basis is our inner conviction. The concept of babies in hell is abhorrent to our sensibilities. The Church has, accordingly, applied universal redemption to those dying below "the age of accountability.""

2- Eternal Hell is a logical problem as was illustrated in the definition linked to in the last email. And that logical problem has to be faced by every person who thinks in a logical mode of thought (not many, I know). Now Saints Like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa and Isaac the Syrian solved it by adopting Universal Salvation, St. Augustine solved it (although he neglected God's Omnibenevolence in the process) by adopting Double Predestination, which is an ugly elitist doctrine that -Thank God- cannot be accepted in our "public" church, but my point is he recognised the issue & had to deal with it somehow. (Please correct me if you know any more about St. Augustine that I don't & can explain what he wrote differently).
Now one of the problems we are facing in our church now is a general decline in the appreciation of logic & logical thinking. I cannot count the times I have been told -sometimes by close friends- to not think too much lest I "mess up"... it is not a refused practice, but frowned upon!

I know this is a general problem present in egyptian mentality these days, & it is something promoted by all totalitarian & authoritarian leaders. But if we are to get anywhere, we have to teach the respect of logic & encourage people that it is safe to think. (I know you'll think this is easy for me to say, being unscarred yet by any serious point of authority)

3- Our current teaching is lacking in respect for God's caring Providence & its effect in our lives. & that teaching is -like the intellectual wave that is sweeping the world now- cynical. I read the next bit in the beginning of a long manuscript (that I am just starting to read) about some of St. Gregory of Nyssa's views on Universal Restoration:

"many contemporary opinions concerning the human person stem from a fractured, cynical viewpoint. These views have various, complex sources but share a common trait: disappearance of faith in a divine reality which effectively intervenes in human affairs . The reflections of Gregory of Nyssa are valuable here in that they echo across sixteen centuries with a refreshing modern insight into God's union with human nature through the person of Jesus Christ."

What I mean to say is, we have effectively stopped trusting in the idea that "Everything will be ok... God is here!", just like the rest of the world, we now find any Hope hard to believe in, let alone a Greater Hope. This cannot be right... can it?!

4- "Good thelogoy is good spirituality" as a friend & teacher told me lately. & this thelogy has serious consequences on people's spirituality, meaning that if the belief that God doesn't punish for vengeance promotes mercy & love (which it does of course), the belief in a heaven that ultimately includes everybody just renders self-righteous hatred obsolete. And this is a very important accomplishment. I mean you can no longer look at an enemy & think "yeah when I'll be in heaven where will you be?!" or tell somebody to go to hell! You cannot fall back on eternal hell as a justification of your hatred & a mental method of resolution for your personal vendettas.

I believe it is imperative to promote a better God than us, & the consequences will only be refused by those who hang on to certain dark aspects of themselves that they wish to justify by attributing it to the Divine. & this cannot really be acceptable, can it? I mean I understand why it happens, but for it to become a matter of fact that cannot be resisted is another thing. Plus I believe that it is the nature of light to eventually disperse darkness regardless of how much of the place is hidden in it, & I believe we are not alone & therefore shouldn't worry too much.

One last thing, I know the current state of our church clergy is regretable, to say the least. I understand that many have been wounded & confused by it, & it became as bad as the government in some aspects of it. But believe me not everybody is a mental slave, & I doubt half of our clergy really approve with the authoritarian measures taken against the children of Christ within the church, a change will come & God will take care of that if it is a part of His Light... me & my friends are living proof of that, even if it seems hopeless sometimes.

But our clergy are not above the need for education, if we are to preach a better Life in a better God our clergy are also a target of such teaching. & we are part of the training process of the world & the clergy are also part of the same training process, I trust in God's Providence & Light.

Sincerely & Lovingly Yours

Peter

My Emails to Dr. Hany Mina - 4

Email: 4
From: Dr. Hany
To: me

Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 4:04 AM


Dear Peter

I am very happy to meet you, even if only on the web.  You gave me a lovely beautiful "sudden sharp shock," as Fr Zakaria says.  Having read your words, I, now, long to meet you face to face.  Where are you on this globe? Can we meet in the flesh?  Where have you been all these years? Who are you? How old are you? What do you do in life? What is your background and spectrum of reading?  Very intriguing thinker indeed.  Your challenges remind me of George Bebawi, the best theologian I have met in my 55 years of life, who is now a great friend, 70 years old, living and teaching theology in Indiana, after Nottingham and Cambridge; you must know of him, if not know him well, with the level of your depth.

Now Sir, I thought I was talking to a 20-25 year-old half-read Copt.  I was wrong, now I know better.  I attempted to give you the best balanced summary of what I know rather than what I deeply hope for and believe in, but would rather not expose others to, unless they can savour it well, without feeling a hot "overdose" down their throat.

The principles I mentioned are the best we can express on the pulpit, on Biblical and Patristic basis, although, still, none is acceptable to our Pope and most of our unread politically-correct clergy: 

• 1) Man makes the choice to divorce God, never the other way round. 
• 2) God would not hold man against man's will.  So, "As long as free will exists, Hell exists."
• 3) Hell is a real condition or experience, clearly mentioned in Christ's teaching, but not well defined as "never ending" albeit "eternal" (=of a different system that has no relation to our Time).  So "It is legitimate to hope that all might be saved [and that is why we pray for all who departed], but heretical to say that all MUST be saved..." 
• 4) We all hate the mere thought of Hell, but cannot extinguish it by denial or wave it goodbye by a mere wishful thinking or even a very deep sense of conviction, that God will definitely wash it away, out of love, because He did not say so to us frankly and unambiguously. 
• 5) Hell is not a God-made place; it is a creature-made condition or state of existence (James 1:13-17).  God hates it and wants it abolished.  Hell is not the consequence of Divine justice, but the result of the Creature's injustice to himself.

My true hope and deep personal conviction is the same as yours.  We, however, do not have enough Biblical foundation to stand on and declare "certainty" in a dogmatic way, on this matter.  I wish we had.  The verses I mentioned are not enough to support a dogmatic teaching.  I also know that it is not a chit-chat matter, far from it, but we cannot teach your hope and mine as a theological "discovery" that all have missed before us.  This stance is exactly what they call "heresy," (=preferring beliefs and excluding others) even if the beliefs seem so attractive we should not take them to the exclusion of others.   It is the intelligent and spiritually deep thinker who is at risk of heresy.  It was said of The Bishop of Salamis who excommunicated Origen 2 centuries after Origen departed to Heaven: "This bishop was so shallow and dull that he could not ever commit heresy" !!!!!!  Certainly Origen, Gregory of Nyssa and Isaac the Syrian, were neither shallow nor dull, so all three believed in a Universal Salvation and that is why they were, to say the least, "criticised" and in case of Origen, excommunicated.        I sincerely believe  (out of love and experience of God as my personal friend rather than a Biblical clarity) that God will and must find a solution for this disease of Eternal Death (Hell) but I wish He had spelt it out frankly rather than "whispering" it in a few ears through the centuries!!!  He is a very humorous but mysterious person and likes this "hide and seek" game. Sometimes I feel He is a lover who plays "too cool", " te2eel awy", "ta2laan 3alena", as we say in Arabic!!!  But these feelings of love and its mysteries are difficult (probably dangerous) to declare to those who do not appreciate love, as a very serious matter, and may misunderstand Love.  Probably the Doctrine of Reserve, after all, is not wrong as a temporary economy, until believers deeply discover God's love and are safe to enter into His "inner room," and be entrusted with such Divine Romance.  He leads our hearts to such convictions, as He is not restricted by the "letter" of even the Biblical verses, which are essentially "a finger pointing to the light and not the light itself."  We, however, in teaching, are restricted.

I do respect your feelings very deeply. I am very happy to meet another person who shares the same conviction.  The verses of 1Pt and 1Cor are so important but could be interpreted by the "authoritarian conservative" as: God will be "all in all, only to those who accepted His will and repented"; who can dare argue? and they will give you many verses about: no repentance = no salvation, regardless of 1Pt words.  They even say: no obedience to Church ( i.e. the clergy!!!) = no Salvation, for only the clergy can absolve you.. ...etc, of such extremism and "Islamic Biblical interpretation," which they have mastered well along the years, and have thousands willing to support their point of view: blind leading the blind.  Also the preaching to the sinners of Noah's time has been interpreted that: perhaps preaching to the infants and children who were innocent but certainly not to those who willingly opposed the clergy of the day (Noah!). 

If we can just convince a few persons of the few principles I mentioned in bullet points in this mail we would have covered a huge ground.  Our Clergy succeded in immunising the congregation against any teaching which is not approved and rubberstamped by the clergy.  We need to reform our Church from inside, as far as possible, without being dishonest to God and ourselves and without shocking simple people; a very tight rope to walk.

If you understand what Anba Shenouda has said and written in criticism of my writings, you will appreciate my words even better.  HH believes that:"God is Just and Holy, therefore, He must punish sinners by eternal death, or punish Christ in our stead, otherwise He would not be true to Himself and all Christianity falls.  Hell is God's eternal tool of punishment.  God is the MAKER of Hell and death to punish sinners, as they surely and justly deserve, so that He may remain Holy.  Any other opinion is sheer heresy."  Of course this false medieval theology is only promoted because it pleases the hearts of those who do not know or wish to consider mercy and forgiveness to their enemies or even those who merely differ with them in opinion: religious terrorism par excellence.  I was told categorically by Anba Bishoy, on behalf of HH, that: "If you criticise any of my teaching, you are attacking me personally and I must take action against you to protect the dignity and honour of Priesthood (meaning himself and his own image).    We are here on Earth as the defenders of Divine Justice by Church punishments."           

I have been excommunicated simply because I wrote that man is the executioner of himself and not God.  Anba Shenouda for that gave me the title "the warrior against Divine Justice."  God forgive him.  I know that God has done so, because I have asked Him to, because I know that He would not deny me this request.

So if we can just teach and can pass the message of these bullet points in 20 years we would win many hearts to the Love of God.

Come to us let us meet.  I love you and I long to see you already Sir Peter. You are welcome anytime. Hany

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter

To: Hany Mikhail

Cc:

Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 5:38 PM

Subject: Re: Fr Antonious Amin's debates CONTINUED

Dear Hany (if I may),

Swift reply, thank you for that.

To continue the debate, then...        [all green writing by Hany, in reply]

I can maybe accept the notion that God didn't give us a detailed answer to my question about Salvation after Death, however I disagree that The Parable of The Ten Virgins must mean eternal damnation, because I have -finally- decided to not use parables to form doctrines, since parables are by nature subjective to the listener's perception. A good example of an alternative explanation to the parables of eternal hell is this one on The Parable of Lazarus & The Rich Man.  [Agreed]

What you have mentioned, sir... is pretty much what I had read earlier in other places that discuss the subject based on christian text.

I would like to add the following in introduction, though:

1- This is an important issue, not theological chit-chat, because in the spiritual sense, I need to believe in a God who's better & more loving than myself, which is the main attraction & the most solid argument in almost everything I've began to believe in lately. [agree entirely regarding conviction, but others may not tolerate some consequences of this thought]

2- Through God's revelations to people, people grow in Him. I'd like to believe that God arranged for me to read & hear all these things as part of my teaching, even if these beliefs are to be refined later & some of them left behind, I still believe it is part of my training. [I love this conviction and Divine Romance]

Now to properly define the problem, the clearest definition I have seen is this , [I enjoyed reading this excellent link]   however it neglects christian text since it is a independant of christian beliefs & should apply to all beliefs that hold the view of eternal damnation & an all-powerful, all-knowing & all-loving God. [much of it is Christian and Patristic]

In the christian text we find a couple of verses (I avoid those in parables now [correct, and parables were meant to be a metaphor to press one single similarity with the truth, but not to apply every word in it to a spiritual meaning as some do, changing metaphors into myths] because I'd like to point to the clearer unambiguous verses first) that go further with the issue:

1- 1Pt 3:18-21 establishes the possibility of salvation after death.
2-  1Cor 15: 20-28 establishes the necessity of salvation after death.

(unless somebody can come with a convincing different interpretation of them both)

or as you put it:

1- 1Pt 3:18-21: there has been an invitation (preaching) by Christ to those who were sinners in the days of Noah and not only those 8 persons who were in the ark, AFTER Christ was crucified and went to visit them in the Prison, hence after their physical death. Read it carefully.

2- 1Cor 15: 20-28: This suggests that no part of the creation will remain "outside God" (=Eternally Dead).

Now you said afterwards that these are mere speculations, so I must ask how can they be? If  there is no alternative interpretation of the verses, or is there? [yes, the authoritarian-conservative can give more than one alternative, even not logical, but if from a clergy you cannot wash the illogic that is glued by clerical customary infalibility] you said:

1- As long as free will exists, Hell exists.

true of course, but the idea of universal salvation does not negate free will   [only if you add the proviso that God will still give us all a chance to re-learn and make a new start and new free choice after departure from this life, which the Bible does not spell outright]  , it just says that God's Love for us & Patience will be greater than Man's hatred of himself & stubborness, it adds that since God is all-powerful & is outside Time & the material world & he has no deadlines, He will patiently & ultimately get us all back to Himself (The Parable of The Lost Sheep comes to mind when we imagine God's perseverance & determination to save us), H e will not force us,  because you can't "force" somebody to believe or see some Truth. but will patiently draw us to Himself & use everything in his power - being boundless is important here- to make us see that Truth, accept that Life & walk down that Way with Him, in Him. [I totally share your belief and conviction but we do not have enough documented Biblical support for our good aspirations to teach such convictions on the pulpit]

2- So we must make the best of the one and best (even if not the only) chance of repentance and Salvation that we now have.

Well that's the thing, this sounds like people who believe in an ultimate salvation for all mankind may become decadent & wasteful of God's Grace. This may be true sometimes but it reminds me with the Doctrine of Reserve.

this was a supposed practice that hid certain biblical ideas from a new believer in order to not shake their faith, but the problem is that the other idea on which that doctrine is based is that fear of eternal death (hell) can save some people, which I will not accept. plus it is contradictory to the belief that Truth will set us Free.  [ It is not a matter of truth and lies. It is a matter of bite only what you can chew and eat what your stomach can digest, and gradually move from drinking the milk of children to solid food of adults, as St Paul says]

I understand that people cannot understand the entire Truth in God at once, this I believe is the reason Jesus spoke in Parables. & it relates to how God gives Faith to people in the form of gradual Revelations, so I can understand why people would hesitate to talk about any of that universal salvation stuff, but I refuse to believe that some people are saved through fear & others through Love! a woman cannot marry a man she is afraid of rather than in love with, it is not a healthy marriage, the same applies to the Kingdom of God. [I agree according to personal experience but some people need gradual training after centuries of Islamic and Kor'anic Biblical interpretation by our clergy, otherwise they will vomit and get confused.  I have met a few of those and some were treatable but in a few years not a few hours of talk]

In addition, this point -the necessity of repentance while we still have the chance- comes into new light with the view that God is Life, meaning that if being with God is being alive, then sinning now & repenting later becomes a meaningless (& indeed painful) practice, if you refuse God you refuse Life... that is hardly something any of us would enjoy whether here on earth or in the age after. you agree that sin carries its punishment inside it, it carries misery & sickness & death.

I believe one of the biggest triumphs of the devil is that he convinced most christians that sin is a beautiful thing that God is denying us... [ and the blinding teaching by some of our clergy on the Church by terrorism!!!] it is true that we desire sin sometimes, but that is quite literally a sickness, due to our sick post-fall nature that God is fixing. The view that you refrain from sin ( here it is equivalent to pleasure) & lead a miserable worldly life in order to get pleasure in the afterlife is completely incorrect & doesn't sound christian at all.

this also answers all the questions of "what if I sin all my life and repent at the last minute?" & "How can that be fair to people who were saints all their lives" & all the questions that run along those lines in our heads (The Parable of The 11th Hour Workers comes to mind) God wants to give you Life, when you take it is up to you, if you postpone it, you'll be miserable (spiritual death in seperation from God). so it's not a matter of choice & reward, it's a matter of when you choose to accept the medicine, until then you'll hurt & keep wondering why & looking elsewhere for a happiness that lasts without finding any. so making the best of our time now doesn't fit in this picture, at least not in the direct sense of the phrase. [I meant making the best of our life now, i.e. repenting and growing in God's knowlege, during the one chance I know best and sure of, that is the present moment] 

Moreover, this also sheds a new light on the process by which God is saving us, he is not only trying to make us choose Him (where our Free Will poses a problem), he is doing so by Teaching us & Healing our sickness (which has enslaved us, so he is Freeing us from the bonds of sin), after that choosing him over sin can't be a very difficult choice. I mean to say that here we look at God as a Teacher & a Doctor, rather than a Salesman! This also addresses the issue of Free Will & may give more meaning to it while preventing it from being an obstacle to the greater hope that all will be saved.

My Emails to Dr. Hany Mina - 3

Email: 3
From: me
To: Dr. Hany

Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 7:38 PM

Dear Hany (if I may),

Swift reply, thank you for that.

To continue the debate, then...

I can maybe accept the notion that God didn't give us a detailed answer to my question about Salvation after Death, however I disagree that The Parable of The Ten Virgins must mean eternal damnation, because I have -finally- decided to not use parables to form doctrines, since parables are by nature subjective to the listener's perception. A good example of an alternative explanation to the parables of eternal hell is this one on The Parable of Lazarus & The Rich Man.

What you have mentioned, sir... is pretty much what I had read earlier in other places that discuss the subject based on christian text.

I would like to add the following in introduction, though:

1- This is an important issue, not theological chit-chat, because in the spiritual sense, I need to believe in a God who's better & more loving than myself, which is the main attraction & the most solid argument in almost everything I've began to believe in lately.

2- Through God's revelations to people, people grow in Him. I'd like to believe that God arranged for me to read & hear all these things as part of my teaching, even if these beliefs are to be refined later & some of them left behind, I still believe it is part of my training.

Now to properly define the problem, the clearest definition I have seen is this , however it neglects christian text since it is a independant of christian beliefs & should apply to all beliefs that hold the view of eternal damnation & an all-powerful, all-knowing & all-loving God.

In the christian text we find a couple of verses (I avoid those in parables now because I'd like to point to the clearer unambiguous verses first) that go further with the issue:

1- 1Pt 3:18-21 establishes the possibility of salvation after death.
2- 1Cor 15: 20-28 establishes the necessity of salvation after death.

(unless somebody can come with a convincing different interpretation of them both)

or as you put it:

1- 1Pt 3:18-21: there has been an invitation (preaching) by Christ to those who were sinners in the days of Noah and not only those 8 persons who were in the ark, AFTER Christ was crucified and went to visit them in the Prison, hence after their physical death. Read it carefully.

2- 1Cor 15: 20-28: This suggests that no part of the creation will remain "outside God" (=Eternally Dead).

Now you said afterwards that these are mere speculations, so I must ask how can they be? If  there is no alternative interpretation of the verses, or is there? you said:

1- As long as free will exists, Hell exists.

true of course, but the idea of universal salvation does not negate free will, it just says that God's Love for us & Patience will be greater than Man's hatred of himself & stubborness, it adds that since God is all-powerful & is outside Time & the material world & he has no deadlines, He will patiently & ultimately get us all back to Himself (The Parable of The Lost Sheep comes to mind when we imagine God's perseverance & determination to save us), He will not force us,  because you can't "force" somebody to believe or see some Truth. but will patiently draw us to Himself & use everything in his power - being boundless is important here- to make us see that Truth, accept that Life & walk down that Way with Him, in Him.

2- So we must make the best of the one and best (even if not the only) chance of repentance and Salvation that we now have.

Well that's the thing, this sounds like people who believe in an ultimate salvation for all mankind may become decadent & wasteful of God's Grace. This may be true sometimes but it reminds me of the Doctrine of Reserve.

this was a supposed practice that hid certain biblical ideas from a new believer in order to not shake their faith, but the problem is that the other idea on which that doctrine is based is that fear of eternal death (hell) can save some people, which I will not accept. plus it is contradictory to the belief  that Truth will set us Free.

I understand that people cannot understand the entire Truth in God at once, this I believe is the reason Jesus spoke in Parables. & it relates to how God gives Faith to people in the form of gradual Revelations, so I can understand why people would hesitate to talk about any of that universal salvation stuff, but I refuse to believe that some people are saved through fear & others through Love! a woman cannot marry a man she is afraid of rather than in love with, it is not a healthy marriage, the same applies to the Kingdom of God.

In addition, this point -the necessity of repentance while we still have the chance- comes into new light with the view that God is Life, meaning that if being with God is being alive, then sinning now & repenting later becomes a meaningless (& indeed painful) practice, if you refuse God you refuse Life... that is hardly something any of us would enjoy whether here on earth or in the age after. you agree that sin carries its punishment inside it, it carries misery & sickness & death.

I believe one of the biggest triumphs of the devil is that he convinced most christians that sin is a beautiful thing that God is denying us... it is true that we desire sin sometimes, but that is quite literally a sickness, due to our sick post-fall nature that God is fixing. The view that you refrain from sin (here it is equivalent to pleasure) & lead a miserable worldly life in order to get pleasure in the afterlife is completely incorrect & doesn't sound christian at all.

this also answers all the questions of "what if I sin all my life and repent at the last minute?" & "How can that be fair to people who were saints all their lives" & all the questions that run along those lines in our heads (The Parable of The 11th Hour Workers comes to mind) God wants to give you Life, when you take it is up to you, if you postpone it, you'll be miserable (spiritual death in seperation from God). so it's not a matter of choice & reward, it's a matter of when you choose to accept the medicine, until then you'll hurt & keep wondering why & looking elsewhere for a happiness that lasts without finding any. so making the best of our time now doesn't fit in this picture, at least not in the direct sense of the phrase.

Moreover, this also sheds a new light on the process by which God is saving us, he is not only trying to make us choose Him (where our Free Will poses a problem), he is doing so by Teaching us & Healing our sickness (which has enslaved us, so he is Freeing us from the bonds of sin), after that choosing him over sin can't be a very difficult choice. I mean to say that here we look at God as a Teacher & a Doctor, rather than a Salesman! This also addresses the issue of Free Will & may give more meaning to it while preventing it from being an obstacle to the greater hope that all will be saved.

Peter

My Emails to Dr. Hany Mina - 2

Email: 2
From: Dr. Hany
To: me

Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 (I can't find the exact time)

Dear Peter

Thank you for your email.  And thank you for mentioning our Great Saintly Father Antonios Amin.  A Spiritual Giant and Thinker who taught many and now rests in the Glory of God forever.  Of course feel free to pass the 4-hour-links, and any material that I send you, to any friend.  I hope they are of use to some.  I attach the 4 links again with the summary article that I wrote when I sent them to arbible group.  I also attach the 43 page English summary of the 272 page book on Divine Justice, which I also attach as PDF files............

.........  The book as it stands has been approved by the late Anba Athanasius of Beniseuf, who wrote its Introduction, as you can see, and of course by Fr Antonios Amin who has been my spiritual father all the past 36 years and who has written the Introduction of my first book "God, Man and the Universe, 1992," because of which Fr Antonios Amin suffered much. 

Now regarding your question:

Is there hope [in Salvation] after death? 

The straight answer is that God did not give us a clear unequivocal answer of a yes or no.  All what people say on this matter is mere speculation.  There are hints that there is such a hope, in some verses, and others hint to the opposite (e.g. the wise and foolish virgins).  The words of Christ about the possibility of forgiveness "in this age or in the age to come ," when talking about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, seem to some to make a hint, but do they?  Read 1Pt 3:19-20 and you will find that there has been an invitation (preaching) by Christ to those who were sinners in the days of Noah and not only those 8 persons who were in the ark, AFTER Christ was crucified and went to visit them in the Prison, hence after their physical death.  Read it carefully, it was Fr Antonios Amin who pointed this part to me.   Also when the parable speaks of remaining in the prison until "paying the last phils (penny)" and those who will be "beaten more and those beaten less, " St Isaac the Syrian comments, in his commentary "On Gehenna," by saying "all what could be measured must have an end."  Also St Paul tells us that eventually when the whole creation is "subjected to Christ," Christ will also be "subjected to the Father, so that God [the Father] would become ALL IN ALL" (1Cor 15: 28). This suggests that no part of the creation will remain "outside God" (=Eternally Dead).  However, having said all that, which is also discussed in a book by a Catholic Priest entitled "Dare I say all might be saved?"  Some theologians also say that Eternal Death (=separation from God eternally) cannot remain eternal for 2 reasons: 1) this would mean God has been defeated. 2) This means that Death would become ETERNAL, which is in a sense the DEIFICATION OF DEATH!!!!!!  3) the word ETERNAL does not mean "never ending," but it means all what belongs to the system that is "outside Time" as we know it.  Mere speculations, which I only mention as you wished to discuss the matter!

So, this is all a mental and intellectual exercise and brain storming acrobatics, which should not be used to conclude DOGMA, but remain as "opinions"and "speculations", or at best a "HOPE," but not certainty.   Bishop Kallistos Ware, the retired Oxford Univ. Chair Prof. of Orthodox Christianity (Greek Orthodox convert from Anglicanism) put it well by saying: "It is legitimate to hope that all might be saved [and that is why we pray for all who departed], but heretical to say that all MUST be saved... . As long as free will exists, Hell exists." Because God cannot force those who hate Him to remain in His presence eternally; this is against love and free will.  That is the reason St Isaac wrote that Hell may very well prove to be the kindest and most merciful condition, accepted by God, for those who cannot face His healing Light , Holiness and Love, because these attributes of God to them constitute a fiery furnace of shame and agony, when God's Love reminds them of what they reject and hate, hence they cannot tolerate.  Hell is man [and devil] made.   We hope that God has another solution, but if He does, He certainly did not tell us about it frankly.  So we must make the best of the one and best (even if not the only) chance of repentance and Salvation that we now have.

Hany

My Emails to Dr. Hany Mina - 1

This a series of Emails exchanged between me and Dr. Hany Mina of 

 http://copticorthodox-divinejustice.com/, primarily discussing Christian concepts related to the possibility of Salvation after Death.

I have recently decided that I'd like to share those emails with a wider audience, so I am posting them here with slight editing (mainly removing parts irrelevant to the discussion and names for anonymity)

Here goes nothing:

Email: 1
From: me
To: Dr. Hany

Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 8:38 AM

Hello Sir,

first of all I'd like to introduce myself, my name is ..................

I apologize for the late email, .......

I had thought of sending you this email a long time ago, but I waited for an introduction from ..... for 2 reasons, the first is that I wasn't sure if you'll trust me, what with the sad general state of our coptic church, & I don't just mean the points of authority, but those who oppose them as well. The whole thing is quite ugly & bears more resemblance to a theocracy than to a church, quite frankly! & this has driven people to watch their words too closely, which is sad for a family in Christ, but has become a must in a way. 

How I heard of you is through 4 hours of your recorded voice, passed on by a friend that I assume he got from a friend. by the way I have them on the internet at my personal online storage space: .........................................
I hope you do not mind. Please tell me if you do & I will remove them, I just wanted to put them in a place where a couple of friends can download them.

Now why I wanted to email you, well I did have some questions, but it's primarily because of something that was hinted at in one of those hours & later hinted at by Fr. Antonious Amin. a few months before he passed away a friend was at his appartment, & I don't know what were they talking about but he asked Fr. Antonious if there is hope after death, & Fr. Antonious's reply was: Yes there is.

Now I see there must be, but at that time I was surprised he said so, after some discussion with my friends we reached a point where we agreed there must be hope after death, we just didn't know how. Then we remembered you hinted at that in one of those recordings when you said something about people dying in the old testament (& indeed, the new testament as well) not as punishment but -as you put it- God wanted to "get the naughty boy out of the room".

Since that time when I wanted to ask you I have searched for answers for quite some time, on websites & in online encyclopedias & I even ventured into Schaff's compilation of the writings of the Alexandrine fathers, but I have to admit I didn't get so far there.

Now my thoughts on the subject have developed, and I still need you to please get in touch with me & tell me what you had meant by that hint, what is the rest of the thought?

.....................................

Thank you.

God Bless